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+--- Thread: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato (/Thread-Zelensky-concedes-Ukraine-won-t-join-Nato)
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - imgr8ness - 03-21-2022
(03-20-2022, 05:34 PM)Boudica Wrote:(03-20-2022, 01:30 AM)Shionari Wrote:(03-20-2022, 12:19 AM)Boudica Wrote: Thanks Shionari. I appreciate your input.My pleasure ^^ I love having these discussions
(03-20-2022, 12:19 AM)Boudica Wrote: At the end of the day, he, and others in his government, chose independence as more important than the risks. I believe the stance the civilians have taken have shown they they, by a large majority, agree with this stance.
To clarify, this isn't something I've taken from news, it's because I know actual Ukrainians in real life. This has somewhat altered my viewpoint. They do a very good job of also describing the Russian perspective, which is very interesting.
Of course, without speaking to someone actually from/in Russia, it's difficult to get a fairer picture.(03-20-2022, 12:56 AM)Dismas Wrote: The narrative that Zelensky put his people in a situation they weren't happy to enter, isn't entirely true. If that were the case, his approval ratings would plummet. The opposite has happened, showing that the Ukrainian people want to remain independent of Russia. To say he shouldn't have been elected isn't fair, as he's representing his people's interests (for better or worse).I see. I hadn't really considered the fact that Ukrainians seemed to support Zelensky's decision. Perhaps it was unfair of me to judge him hastily, but I still think his decision was overall a bad one. At the end of the day, this whole conflict still hasn't led to anything that could be considered positive. Sure, people are now speaking out against Putin's brutality and dictatorship, and Ukraine has shown that it wants to obtain its independence, but that's nothing compared to the hundreds of lives that were lost in the process - at least, in my opinion. There had to have been a better way than to go through all this bloodshed.
Unlike the Ukraine, Russia is seeing signs of dissent. Over 14,000 people have been arrested for protest, and their astronauts are wearing the Ukrainian flag. The will of the people, in both Ukraine and the rest of the world, is evident.
Then again, it's still too early to say anything for certain. Maybe this will lead to new developments in the future that will justify what the Ukrainians went through. I kind of doubt it, but you never know.
@"Boudica" What did you mean by Russian perspective? I'm curious to know about that
Agreed! I was shocked it really went as far as an outright war.
I suspect no war is ever worth it, especially to those that lose someone. However, there's no country/nation that's history is free from it.
So, I'd be curious to see what Russian's themselves think about this. I'm aware thousands of their citizens have been arrested for protesting, and independent media companies are being censored. So I'm curious to see what this war would look like, from someone of a different bias to my own. What do they think of the protestors. How much do they believe the Nazi narrative?
You mention the 'Nazi narrative' which is quite interesting to me, as it seems all who support Ukraine are in fact acting just as Hitler did to the jews in the lead up to WW2.
Some interesting points:
1 - Zelensky has banned 11 political parties with ties to, or perceived ties to Russia.
My opinion: This action is what a dictator would do and is no different, in principle, to what Hitler did to the jews. IF those political parties are pro-Russia, then silencing them means you have shut down avenues of communication and diplomacy which could lead to peace. If Zelensky is serious about peace, then he should ensure political channels are left open otherwise, you ensure that the only method of response is violence.
2 - With a large part of the world condemning Putins actions, Russians living abroad have been subjected to calls of violence towards them (openly on Twitter and FB with their blessing) and having their assets frozen or taken away from them.
My opinion: In this instance, treating Russians living abroad in this way is classed as racist and xenophobic, the very things that civilised western countries proclaim they are against. Treating all people who belong to a particular group the same way is tantamount to discrimination. Why condemn every single Russian worldwide for the decisions of a few top officials in Russia?
3 - Many important positions in his cabinet have been filled by close friends of his that have no political experience. For example, Ivan Bakanov, Zelensky’s childhood friend and executive of his media business (Kvartal 95), was appointed chief of the Security Service of Ukraine. Serhiy Shefir, a former scriptwriter and producer of Kvartal 95, became chief assistant to the president. Serhiy Trofimov, former executive producer at Kvartal 95, and Yuriy Kostyuk, a former screenwriter, became deputy chiefs of the presidential office. Kvartal 95 managers were also appointed to the national TV and radio broadcasting regulator and the Anti-Monopoly Committee.
My opinion: This is a clear case of 'cronyism' and although its not the only indicator of a dictatorship, its one of the classic hallmarks. Surely I don't need to explain to you why cronyism is negative.
Furthermore, I just cannot accept that Zelensky is anything but a fool. The main reason he was elected is because he was well known through TV, he had zero political experience. Even his political party was called 'Servent of the People' which directly referenced the television series he starred in. It would be more accurate to say that the Ukrainian people voted AGAINST Poroshenko rather than voted FOR Zelensky.
I feel its fitting to refer to something Socrates said, as written by Plato, about democracy:
'In the dialogues of Plato, the founding father of Greek Philosophy – Socrates – is portrayed as hugely pessimistic about the whole business of democracy. In Book Six of The Republic, Plato describes Socrates falling into conversation with a character called Adeimantus and trying to get him to see the flaws of democracy by comparing a society to a ship. If you were heading out on a journey by sea, asks Socrates, who would you ideally want deciding who was in charge of the vessel? Just anyone or people educated in the rules and demands of seafaring? The latter of course, says Adeimantus, so why then, responds Socrates, do we keep thinking that any old person should be fit to judge who should be a ruler of a country?
Socrates’s point is that voting in an election is a skill, not a random intuition. And like any skill, it needs to be taught systematically to people. Letting the citizenry vote without an education is as irresponsible as putting them in charge of a trireme sailing to Samos in a storm.'
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - Shionari - 03-21-2022
(03-20-2022, 05:34 PM)Boudica Wrote: I suspect no war is ever worth it, especially to those that lose someone. However, there's no country/nation that's history is free from it.Exactly. Though we may talk about ideals like peace, democracy, human rights and freedoms, at the end of the day, they are still ideals that can never be truly reached in a world like this. We should always keep that in the back of our minds when dealing with these situations.
(03-20-2022, 05:34 PM)Boudica Wrote: So, I'd be curious to see what Russian's themselves think about this. I'm aware thousands of their citizens have been arrested for protesting, and independent media companies are being censored. So I'm curious to see what this war would look like, from someone of a different bias to my own. What do they think of the protestors. How much do they believe the Nazi narrative?Agreed! This is something that's been on my mind as well. I'd love to hear another side to the story, the side that the western media we follow doesn't show us.
That's why it piqued my curiosity when you mentioned that you had real life Ukrainian friends which talked about the Russian perspective. Did they share anything that could help answer some of these questions?
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - Boudica - 03-23-2022
(03-21-2022, 06:46 PM)Shionari Wrote:(03-20-2022, 05:34 PM)Boudica Wrote: I suspect no war is ever worth it, especially to those that lose someone. However, there's no country/nation that's history is free from it.Exactly. Though we may talk about ideals like peace, democracy, human rights and freedoms, at the end of the day, they are still ideals that can never be truly reached in a world like this. We should always keep that in the back of our minds when dealing with these situations.
(03-20-2022, 05:34 PM)Boudica Wrote: So, I'd be curious to see what Russian's themselves think about this. I'm aware thousands of their citizens have been arrested for protesting, and independent media companies are being censored. So I'm curious to see what this war would look like, from someone of a different bias to my own. What do they think of the protestors. How much do they believe the Nazi narrative?Agreed! This is something that's been on my mind as well. I'd love to hear another side to the story, the side that the western media we follow doesn't show us.
That's why it piqued my curiosity when you mentioned that you had real life Ukrainian friends which talked about the Russian perspective. Did they share anything that could help answer some of these questions?
Agreed! There's a big difference between ideals and reality.
My Ukrainian friend was mostly explaining to others in the social group why the Russian's believed what the believed. She was talking about some of the media censorship that goes on which can shape a narrative. However, she of course, is not in Russia right now xD
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - imgr8ness - 03-24-2022
(03-23-2022, 08:29 PM)Boudica Wrote:(03-21-2022, 06:46 PM)Shionari Wrote:(03-20-2022, 05:34 PM)Boudica Wrote: I suspect no war is ever worth it, especially to those that lose someone. However, there's no country/nation that's history is free from it.Exactly. Though we may talk about ideals like peace, democracy, human rights and freedoms, at the end of the day, they are still ideals that can never be truly reached in a world like this. We should always keep that in the back of our minds when dealing with these situations.
(03-20-2022, 05:34 PM)Boudica Wrote: So, I'd be curious to see what Russian's themselves think about this. I'm aware thousands of their citizens have been arrested for protesting, and independent media companies are being censored. So I'm curious to see what this war would look like, from someone of a different bias to my own. What do they think of the protestors. How much do they believe the Nazi narrative?Agreed! This is something that's been on my mind as well. I'd love to hear another side to the story, the side that the western media we follow doesn't show us.
That's why it piqued my curiosity when you mentioned that you had real life Ukrainian friends which talked about the Russian perspective. Did they share anything that could help answer some of these questions?
Agreed! There's a big difference between ideals and reality.
My Ukrainian friend was mostly explaining to others in the social group why the Russian's believed what the believed. She was talking about some of the media censorship that goes on which can shape a narrative. However, she of course, is not in Russia right now xD
'My Ukrainian friend...'
That would explain why you're ignoring my carefully crafted responses, since you clearly side with Ukraine. It appears you would rather stick to your beliefs like glue without question, rather than engage in a meaningful discussion.
A good quote which is quite apt for you is: To avoid criticism...say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.
Its interesting speaking with people who appear to hold an unshakeable belief in something when they are not willing to back up those beliefs with actions, merely words.
In simple terms, if you think Russia is so evil and Ukraine is the victim, why don't you leave the comfort of your home and go fight alongside the Ukrainians?
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - Boudica - 03-25-2022
(03-24-2022, 12:09 AM)imgr8ness Wrote:(03-23-2022, 08:29 PM)Boudica Wrote:(03-21-2022, 06:46 PM)Shionari Wrote: Exactly. Though we may talk about ideals like peace, democracy, human rights and freedoms, at the end of the day, they are still ideals that can never be truly reached in a world like this. We should always keep that in the back of our minds when dealing with these situations.
Agreed! This is something that's been on my mind as well. I'd love to hear another side to the story, the side that the western media we follow doesn't show us.
That's why it piqued my curiosity when you mentioned that you had real life Ukrainian friends which talked about the Russian perspective. Did they share anything that could help answer some of these questions?
Agreed! There's a big difference between ideals and reality.
My Ukrainian friend was mostly explaining to others in the social group why the Russian's believed what the believed. She was talking about some of the media censorship that goes on which can shape a narrative. However, she of course, is not in Russia right now xD
'My Ukrainian friend...'
That would explain why you're ignoring my carefully crafted responses, since you clearly side with Ukraine. It appears you would rather stick to your beliefs like glue without question, rather than engage in a meaningful discussion.
A good quote which is quite apt for you is: To avoid criticism...say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.
Its interesting speaking with people who appear to hold an unshakeable belief in something when they are not willing to back up those beliefs with actions, merely words.
In simple terms, if you think Russia is so evil and Ukraine is the victim, why don't you leave the comfort of your home and go fight alongside the Ukrainians?
Excuse me? It seems as if you've not actually read any of what I've said, or understand any of my viewpoints.
As I've already made clear, I make my opinions based on multiple sources of information, rather than one, and take everything I read with a pinch of salt.
My Ukrainian friend is describing her experience. Not all facts of the event. She is only describing what she has seen, and heard, and experienced. As with anything, one should understand the source the information they receive, and it's limitations. It was interesting to hear her take on it but this is why I immediately said I'd like to hear an actual Russian citizens' perspective as well.
Not once have I said I think Russia is evil. Please re-read my comments.
I'm against war in general, but I know it's a reality of life. No party is innocent in war. These are the opinions I've expressed thus far.
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - imgr8ness - 03-28-2022
(03-19-2022, 08:28 PM)Boudica Wrote:(03-18-2022, 12:43 AM)imgr8ness Wrote: Zelensky indirectly admits that the war could of been avoided all along, as one of Russia's points was that Ukraine should remain independent and not join NATO.
That being the case, why did Zelensky make the choice to fight Russia to begin with?
Reading Zelenskys various statements as the war progressed has revealed he made a grave mistake opting to oppose Russia, for which his own people have paid the price.
Ukraine is not in NATO and therefore NATO is bound by their own laws not to engage in this conflict.
Zelensky gambled with his peoples lives, hoping that NATO would come to the rescue but ultimately this was never going to happen and now he has Ukrainian blood on his hands.
This actor and comedian should NEVER have been elected, he has proved to be a disaster for the country.
And when the conflict finally ends and Zelensky has achieved nothing except what Russia asked for from the start, the people will see that their loved ones dying was all for nothing.
I'm sorry, who began military operations and actually started the fighting?
(03-25-2022, 08:49 AM)Boudica Wrote:(03-24-2022, 12:09 AM)imgr8ness Wrote:(03-23-2022, 08:29 PM)Boudica Wrote: Agreed! There's a big difference between ideals and reality.
My Ukrainian friend was mostly explaining to others in the social group why the Russian's believed what the believed. She was talking about some of the media censorship that goes on which can shape a narrative. However, she of course, is not in Russia right now xD
'My Ukrainian friend...'
That would explain why you're ignoring my carefully crafted responses, since you clearly side with Ukraine. It appears you would rather stick to your beliefs like glue without question, rather than engage in a meaningful discussion.
A good quote which is quite apt for you is: To avoid criticism...say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.
Its interesting speaking with people who appear to hold an unshakeable belief in something when they are not willing to back up those beliefs with actions, merely words.
In simple terms, if you think Russia is so evil and Ukraine is the victim, why don't you leave the comfort of your home and go fight alongside the Ukrainians?
Excuse me? It seems as if you've not actually read any of what I've said, or understand any of my viewpoints.
As I've already made clear, I make my opinions based on multiple sources of information, rather than one, and take everything I read with a pinch of salt.
My Ukrainian friend is describing her experience. Not all facts of the event. She is only describing what she has seen, and heard, and experienced. As with anything, one should understand the source the information they receive, and it's limitations. It was interesting to hear her take on it but this is why I immediately said I'd like to hear an actual Russian citizens' perspective as well.
Not once have I said I think Russia is evil. Please re-read my comments.
I'm against war in general, but I know it's a reality of life. No party is innocent in war. These are the opinions I've expressed thus far.
Clearly referring to Russia, you wrote 'I'm sorry, who began military operations and actually started the fighting?'
Yes of course you did not say Russia is evil, but with your statements thus far, there is only one conclusion I can draw.
There is no question of course that Russia entered Ukraine and started fighting and there is no question that most people prefer to live in peace.
However, you must look at the reasons why Russia have acted at this point. Hasn't it occured to you that Putin held the Russian presidency for over 9 years (this time) and he did not choose to act until now? You must be aware that Putin has reasons for taking action.
Putting aside the argument that 'war is bad', fact is, the world has been built on conflict in one way or another. So arguing over the necessity of war is outside the scope of this discussion.
I believe war is necessary under the right conditions. With that said, the most important thing is to look at the reason behind the war. As we all know, the reason for a war is everything, its why the western media pushes false narratives in order to give the US legitimacy when carrying out murder. For instance, by pushing the lie that Saddam had 'weapons of mass destruction'.
And so we see the same thing now in western media, endless stories about Putin and how evil he is, all the while ignoring anything amiss with Ukraine or Zelensky.
As an example of that point, here is an article from Reuters in 2018 which reports on the corruption which is rampant in Ukraine. Of course, we don't hear about that now, apparently Ukraine and Zelensky are angels.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - ConcernedCitizen - 03-28-2022
(03-28-2022, 12:32 AM)imgr8ness Wrote: As an example of that point, here is an article from Reuters in 2018 which reports on the corruption which is rampant in Ukraine. Of course, we don't hear about that now, apparently Ukraine and Zelensky are angels.These nations have been at war for years. Long before war broke out.
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - imgr8ness - 03-28-2022
(03-28-2022, 12:41 AM)vittring Wrote:(03-28-2022, 12:32 AM)imgr8ness Wrote: As an example of that point, here is an article from Reuters in 2018 which reports on the corruption which is rampant in Ukraine. Of course, we don't hear about that now, apparently Ukraine and Zelensky are angels.These nations have been at war for years. Long before war broke out.
Yes of course. I'm not sure how your comment relates to mine.
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - ConcernedCitizen - 03-28-2022
(03-28-2022, 12:48 AM)imgr8ness Wrote: Yes of course. I'm not sure how your comment relates to mine.The Russo-Ukrainian War has been going on for about 8 years now. Russia only launched its invasion of Ukraine in February. It started before that in the cyber realm. Espionage has been the MO for Russia for at least a decade and Ukraine's leaders aren't saints either. Both have committed war crimes that have yet to be seen, and Russia knows it is at fault and they have done a good job at hiding their crimes. The FSB has been great at hiding their past.
I don't know if it's related but node-ipc, a Node JS module, was altered by the maintainer to have malicious intent.
On March 7, a version 10.1.1 of a certain module was published with clear code updates that raised concerns for suspicious activity and potential abuse of the source code, which would later cause a supply chain issue. The module was used by many, including @vue/cli users. According to one organization, it ended up deleting TiB of data related to atrocities being committed inside Ukraine, just because the company was using that version of the module.
https://snyk.io/blog/peacenotwar-malicious-npm-node-ipc-package-vulnerability/
RE: Zelensky concedes Ukraine won't join Nato - Dismas - 03-28-2022
(03-28-2022, 01:09 AM)vittring Wrote:(03-28-2022, 12:48 AM)imgr8ness Wrote: Yes of course. I'm not sure how your comment relates to mine.The Russo-Ukrainian War has been going on for about 8 years now. Russia only launched its invasion of Ukraine in February. It started before that in the cyber realm. Espionage has been the MO for Russia for at least a decade and Ukraine's leaders aren't saints either. Both have committed war crimes that have yet to be seen, and Russia knows it is at fault and they have done a good job at hiding their crimes. The FSB has been great at hiding their past.
I don't know if it's related but node-ipc, a Node JS module, was altered by the maintainer to have malicious intent.
On March 7, a version 10.1.1 of a certain module was published with clear code updates that raised concerns for suspicious activity and potential abuse of the source code, which would later cause a supply chain issue. The module was used by many, including @vue/cli users. According to one organization, it ended up deleting TiB of data related to atrocities being committed inside Ukraine, just because the company was using that version of the module.
https://snyk.io/blog/peacenotwar-malicious-npm-node-ipc-package-vulnerability/
The node-ipc edit wasn't from a state-sponsored actor, but an activist. While I'm in favor of Ukraine's independence, this sort of thing undermines the credibility of everyone associated.