[ArkPhaze]

No :S. Where'd you get that from? Try running something like VisualStudio
in a web based application. Could you imagine the required resources and
server load? And I doubt it would have the security level that a desktop
application would have in order to interact with your system at a core level.

Well, we have Google Doc that slowly replace Office. There is draw.io for replacing Visio. We have
Pixlr that is trying to build a feature-rich photo manipulation (Photoshop). We have Salesforce for
Contact Management System, we have Trello for collaboration tool. There are a lot of
good web application now that is not available in desktop application such as Google
Analytic, Google Translator, etc...

Why? What would be the advantages there? What about user settings and everything?
Would you want to store something like your registry online?

Well, I found out that having all setting storing online is a big advantage, you can simply
replace your computer to new one, and you don't need to re-install new software
and re-setting the same thing again. HTML5 now have local storage that allows
web application to cache resource-extensive. You don't need to load the whole
Visual Studio size application. They can lazy-load what it needs and store it
at local storage.

"and software works across platform" <-- However this is not guaranteed just because
it can run in your web browser.

But better than other language that claim to run across platform. There are a lot of
Javascript function that works on all platform and there are a lot of Javascript
framework that ensure that everything you did will work across different
platform (for example: jQuery). Of course, you need to test at different platform
to ensure it will work, but the chance is high.

Google docs is not replacing Office... They are two entirely different things. That would be like saying Google docs is replacing notepad or some other richtext editor. Google docs is just a cloud based hosting service for files for the most part. Office 2013 came out with the ability to sync to the cloud anyways, so how could Google docs be replacing it? There's also Skydrive now, but it, and neither does Google docs, replace the editing capabilities of Office (assuming you're talking about Word, because "Office" is a suite of programs, not a single program btw). And not always are you going to be in a place that has an ethernet cable that you can hook up to your laptop or WiFi too, so what if you wrote a huge paragraph out through an online application, lost internet connection, hit save, and lost all that work? I would rather have Office 2013 which allows me to keep a local copy until I want to sync to the cloud so I can access it elsewhere, and no web-based application is going to do that for you. You would be downloading that data if you wanted a local copy, which would be much slower too, and assuming you had connection to their servers, just the same.

There's many drawing web apps out there, but Visio has much more capability than draw.io, and Pixlr has not even 5% of the capability that Photoshop does with it's video editing capabilities and 3D modeling capabilities that came out in the latest version. I will give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume that you aren't a Photoshop user, or at least a CS5 or CS6 user... Pixlr provides all preset stuff, there's no free-hand manipulation near what Photoshop can do.

You have to understand that web apps are never going to be capable of what the desktop can do (until some kind of new revolutionary technology comes out that allows us to stream data wirelessly very very fast and long distances (right now, it's hard enough to stream a 1080p movie alone)), because you aren't relying on transferring data over TCP all the time (which can be risky in some cases -- another disadvantage). Office 365 is already capable of syncing to the cloud too.

There are a lot of
good web application now that is not available in desktop application such as Google
Analytic, Google Translator, etc...

Only because it makes more sense for these to be web-based services. Why would Google give out all of the data from their translator to people via a desktop application? (The risk would be there for other people to build translators the same as Google.) Analytics takes data that Google holds too, and it's all up to date. Why would you sync that to a location on your hard drive just to view the data? The data was never initially created on your local filesystem, which is the difference in practicality here.

Well, I found out that having all setting storing online is a big advantage, you can simply
replace your computer to new one, and you don't need to re-install new software
and re-setting the same thing again.

It can also easily disappear just as easy as it is to have the data out there for easier portability. How many times do people have to prove how unsafe data is, when it can be accessed via the internet? This is also almost like an invitation for government to start peeking into others' personal files and folders for instance. What do you think happens to all of your photos and information on Facebook?

But better than other language that claim to run across platform.

How so? For example, ASP.net is ASP.net it has requirements for runtime, how does it change just because it becomes a web application? You still need mono, and mono will not support every 3rd party OS out there just because it allows you to run .NET on Linux. It would be no different than having a .NET desktop application ran via the desktop on Linux using Mono. You're forgetting about Flash, Silverlight, etc, as well... There's more than just PHP, Javascript, and HTML. Those are only the basics.

I never said there were not advantages, I'm saying that you need to open your eyes up to the disadvantages as well. I will wait for the day that we have to learn the hard way though. It's only a matter of time until Quantum computers come out, and help us all if a good knowledgeable hacker gets their hands on one and attempts to do some damage. You think a computer with an eight core processor and 16GB RAM is powerful in today's world? *chuckles*

Because of my knowledge about Physics and quantum computing so far, if they can start releasing these things to the public market and they have the computations perfected, it would be like having hundreds of cores and multiple processors. The only thing after that would be having programs and an operating system that took advantage of that.

[invisal]

@ArkPhaze

I have never said that those application have completely replaced the desktop one. I am saying
they are slowly making their way to replace them. Sure, there are some applications that does
not make sense for web application (at least for now).

You would be downloading that data if you wanted a local copy, which would be much slower
too, and assuming you had connection to their servers, just the same...
it can also easily disappear just as easy as it is to have the data out there for easier portability

You have choice to save it at your local file or push it to internet. Just because
it is an web application, assuming that everything is stored at the remote. You can load
local file and make modification and save back to your local file if you
prefer it.

Only because it makes more sense for these to be web-based services.
Why would Google give out all of the data from their translator to people via a
desktop application?

They can have desktop application that connecting to their server without
having store in the local hard drive.

Analytics takes data that Google holds too, and it's all up to date. Why would you sync
that to a location on your hard drive just to view the data?

Desktop application can stream the data without having to store it in hard drive.

How so? For example, ASP.net is ASP.net it has requirements for runtime,
how does it change just because it becomes a web application? You still need mono,
and mono will not support every 3rd party OS out there just because it allows you
to run .NET on Linux. It would be no different than having a .NET desktop application
ran via the desktop on Linux using Mono. You're forgetting about Flash, Silverlight,
etc, as well... There's more than just PHP, Javascript, and HTML. Those are only the basics.

There are more computer (not to count mobile device) that have web browser than having
Java Runtime and .NET framework.

I never said there were not advantages, I'm saying that you need to open your eyes up to the
disadvantages as well.

I am not saying that there is no disadvantage. I am predicting a future application. It is vision
and it may seem to be impossible now, but from what I can say, it is heading to this way.
It was like people at the stone age believing that flying is impossible. It might not be possible
now, but technology is evolving.

---

You think a computer with an eight core processor and 16GB RAM is powerful in today's world? *chuckles*

What is this have to do with our argument or are you saying that it is impossible for web application
to replace desktop application because Javascript is too slow? I believe Chrome has Javascript JIT.
It interprets the code and compile it to native code. I believe they are working on optimizing it
everyday.

Photoshop does with it's video editing capabilities and 3D modeling capabilities that came out in the latest version.

Sadly, I am Photoshop user, but how many people have Photoshop that use every feature of Photoshop.
Majority of people want to crop and adjust color, add some texts. Only professional graphic designer that
use those fancy feature.

Right now, HTML5 is introducing WebGL, which is using OpenGL ES. It is new, but it looks promising.

[ArkPhaze]

They are starting to have some capabilities, but you'll notice the same between any 2 alike desktop programs. This doesn't mean that they are on the verge of becoming replaced. If we come out with better technology to stream data over distances more effectively, and securely, then that would change my opinion entirely. I don't see that we're even close to that stage yet, and with technology changing so rapidly, it would be a very stupid thing to get into that game right now. When quantum computers come out, mark my words, they are written on this forum and many others... There will be a few disastrous events from having computers that powerful, and perhaps some really good things too in terms of science, which will improve our everyday life, but that does not come without the bad, and that's what I'm worried about.

You have choice to save it at your local file or push it to internet. Just because
it is an web application, assuming that everything is stored at the remote. You can load
local file and make modification and save back to your local file if you
prefer it.

See, but this is the same thing with Office 2013, only by default it saves to your local filesystem until otherwise specified, but you can make backups much easier on your local filesystem which are managed for you. A web application doesn't have this kind of filesystem integration, you would have to manage the backups on your own. But in addition to that, they provide you the option to sync to the cloud. I don't see the difference here for that reason.

They can have desktop application that connecting to their server without
having store in the local hard drive.

This is called *Firefox*/*IE*/*Chrome*/etc already is it not? :S

The only difference is that the web browser serves more than just that purpose.

And here's the ironic part, without a desktop program like Firefox, how would you create sockets manually to send and receive data over the TCP protocol for instance? lol. There are some programs that need to be desktop programs, and some that just make more sense to be desktop applications, and reversely the same with web-applications.

Desktop application can stream the data without having to store it in hard drive.

Yeah, but this is already something like Firefox for instance, as I mentioned above. They store cached data in your Temp folder however... But unless Analytics creates functionality for saving reports in a certain format or allowing you to retrieve data that is visible on your account, but not readily available to download, a desktop program optimized with further functionality could make more sense too.

There are more computer (not to count mobile device) that have web browser than having
Java Runtime and .NET framework.

Not true at all, the part about the web browser is true, but I don't get how you think that a web browser is a replacement for the Java Runtime or the .NET framework. Look at Windows Phone for instance... You think any of those apps do not require the .NET framework? (I've made Windows Store apps before.)

I am not saying that there is no disadvantage. I am predicting a future application. It is vision
and it may seem to be impossible now, but from what I can say, it is heading to this way.
It was like people at the stone age believing that flying is impossible. It might not be possible
now, but technology is evolving.

Perhaps the part of your post that I most agree with. I just don't like it because of what I know now. That may change in the future, but we've proven stupidity many times in the past with evolving and revolutionizing technology that we think is "better." I'm not saying it's impossible either, I'm saying it would be a bad thing to be heading towards until other things fall into place first. Highest priority here is security, but then again, even things that were thought to be unbreakable, were broken in the past...

The cloud IS the future though, I just don't see the point in moving everything to the cloud, at least just yet anyways. That's the reason for my very direct responses here, it's nothing against you. I just wanted to point out how much there is to be considered, before we make a stupid move and have the opponent call "checkmate" so to speak.

Cheers

[invisal]

@ArkPhaze

And here's the ironic part, without a desktop program like Firefox, how would you create
sockets manually to send and receive data over the TCP protocol for instance? lol.
There are some programs that need to be desktop programs, and some that just make
more sense to be desktop applications, and reversely the same with web-applications.

True, you cannot run web application without web browser. It is the same like
you cannot run Photoshop without operating system or running Java without
Java Runtime, or .NET application without .NET framework.

Not true at all, the part about the web browser is true, but I don't get how
you think that a web browser is a replacement for the Java Runtime or the
.NET framework. Look at Windows Phone for instance... You think any of
those apps do not require the .NET framework? (I've made Windows Store
apps before.)

Well, web browser serves like a runtime for Javascript except that more computer
have web browser than Java Runtime and .NET framework. Windows Phone
only have 2% of smart phone market. Android and iOS does not defaultly
come with .NET framework. Same goes with Java Runtime. It does not
defaultly come with iOS or Windows Mobile.

So basically, it is not a replacement, but a more popular runtime or framework
than Java Runtime and .NET framework.

The only difference is that the web browser serves more than just that purpose.

As you know that HTTP is a stateless protocol. Google Analytic has a Real-time
analytic. It makes more sense to use a better protocol than HTTP. They have
to use long-pooling (a workaround to make HTTP able to do streaming).
Right now, we have WebSocket, but only a few new browser supports it.

Same goes to Facebook chat. It has to use a lot of workaround to accomplish
the real-time chat which can be easily be done with desktop application.

Of course, future is unpredictable. Somethings that we think it is a tomorrow "FUTURE"
might not be future and die. I agree that it is subjective and what I am pointing
is what I think.

Anyway, I am not against you. I enjoy a meaningful debate.

[ArkPhaze]

True, you cannot run web application without web browser. It is the same like
you cannot run Photoshop with operating system or running Java without
Java Runtime, or .NET application without .NET framework.

"you cannot run Photoshop *without an* operating system"

That's irrelevant though, how would you run a web application without going through some kind of operating system that understood HTTP(S)? Photoshop has that same requirement as does a web browser or a web application. There's some kind of computer involved of course behind all the action. The WWW is not just something standalone.

Well, web browser serves like a runtime for Javascript except that more computer
have web browser than Java Runtime and .NET framework.

You are forgetting here, that when most people think about a web application, they are not thinking about only Javascript though. Forget Javascript for now... Java applets, ASP.net, Flash, Silverlight, etc, ALL qualify for web applications...

Windows Phone only have 2% of smart phone market.

However, they just started not too long ago, so that statistic is pretty ignorant to be making at this point in time. How long has Apple been in the market? I can guarantee for more than a year or two, and same with Android. Android and Apple are not the only ones out there to be considered just because they are the largest. That's not how the market works. There are others even smaller than Windows Phone out there.

And it also cannot be considered "more popular" because .NET is used for different things than Javascript too. It would be like comparing an encyclopedia to a geek. Both contain knowledge perhaps, but a person can do a other things that a book cannot.

As you know that HTTP is a stateless protocol. Google Analytic has a Real-time
analytic. It makes more sense to use a better protocol than HTTP. They have
to use long-pooling (a workaround to make HTTP able to do streaming).
Right now, we have WebSocket, but only a few new browser supports it.

Same goes to Facebook chat. It has to use a lot of workaround to accomplish
the real-time chat which can be easily be done with desktop application.

Of course, future is unpredictable. Somethings that we think it is a tomorrow "FUTURE"
might not be future and die. I agree that it is subjective and what I am pointing
is what I think.

HTTP is not the *only* protocol though. Also, the fact that Google analytics has real-time statistics is my reason for why it should stay as a web service that can be accessed through a simple webpage after logging in. Unless there's a reason for desktop interaction, there's no point in having a desktop application for it. This is not the exact same case, for when files are involved. Take DropBox as my example.

[invisal]

@ArkPhaze

That's irrelevant though, how would you run a web application without
going through some kind of operating system that understood HTTP(S)?
Photoshop has that same requirement as does a web browser or a web application.
There's some kind of computer involved of course behind all the action. The WWW
is not just something standalone.

It is not irrelevant since your previous argument pointed that the disadvantages
of web application is because it relies on web browser. So it does for other
application. It also rely on other thing as well.

You are forgetting here, that when most people think about a web application,
they are not thinking about only Javascript though. Forget Javascript for now... J
ava applets, ASP.net, Flash, Silverlight, etc, ALL qualify for web applications...

ASP.NET is a server-side script. You only need .NET framework at the server-side.
User does not need .NET framework. They need only web browser.
Flash does not come with web browser. iOS even drop the flash support.
Silverlight is developed by Microsoft and it is even little popular than Flash.
Java Applets is the same as flash and silverlight. You need to install plugin
additional to web browser. Javascript works with many web browsers
(desktop and mobile).

However, they just started not too long ago, so that statistic is pretty ignorant
to be making at this point in time. How long has Apple been in the market?
I can guarantee for more than a year or two, and same with Android.
Android and Apple are not the only ones out there to be considered just
because they are the largest. That's not how the market works.
There are others even smaller than Windows Phone out there.

Windows Mobile has been around before the existence of iPhone and Android.
They dropped from 10% share to 2%. It is how market work. As a developer,
we want to target the largest audience. Or are you suggesting that
we should develop something that only 1% use and abandon what 90% of
user is currently using now?

[ArkPhaze]

It is not irrelevant since your previous argument pointed that the disadvantages
of web application is because it relies on web browser. So it does for other
application. It also rely on other thing as well.

If that's what you got out of my post then you entirely missed the point, completely. It was not because of the fact that it needs another program (a webbrowser to run), but the disadvantages that a web-based *program* has, over one able to run directly on the system. This has nothing to do with going through a program; web browser in this case.

Actually, you missed what I was getting at, hinted at by the other paragraphs of replies as well...

[hellomen]

I know only three C, Java and JScript. But still need to get depth in this. I wonder why C++ is not included it is such a powerful language. Codecs, Games, applications, plugins etc etc are developed with C++. It should have been included. Haskell, I am a beginner and I read the book you suggested.

correct me if I am wrong but C are the C languages so C# & C++ and any other visual studio language that starts with C

OP Good Job

[invisal]

@hellomen

C, C++, and C# are different language. Same goes with Java and Javascript.

[hellomen]

@hellomen

C, C++, and C# are different language. Same goes with Java and Javascript.

I know about Java and Javascript but as far as I knew C = C# & C++
the © Series of Visual Studio
I have the full ultimate version and didn't seen a C language even though it's the fully installed ultimate version