[ConcernedCitizen]

For Canadian biotech entrepreneur Yuri Deigin, whose 16,000-word essay last April provided one of the first detailed arguments that the COVID-19 virus could have escaped from a Chinese lab, the recent traction gained by such a theory provides a measure of satisfaction.

"When I just put it out, I was ridiculed and attacked as a crackpot, a crazy guy who doesn't know what he's talking about," Deigin said from Moscow.

Deigin says he too initially believed what appeared to be the general scientific consensus, that the virus behind COVID-19 originated naturally through human contact with an infected animal in Wuhan, China "because that's how viral outbreaks usually happen." 

But, he said, after he delved into the competing theory, "it became very clear that this is not a crazy hypothesis, not a crazy conspiracy theory."

To be clear, the so-called Wuhan lab-leak theory isn't back in the news because any major piece of evidence has been uncovered to give it credence. What has changed is calls from scientists in the field, the Biden administration, and others to investigate it properly — because even the head of the World Health Organization says that hasn't happened yet.

"I have to remind everybody and myself, too, that, you know, we're still far from a conclusive proof either way," said Deigin.

I've been thinking this from the beginning when there was a theory injected into the media that it could have been an accidental (or even purposeful) release to test the capabilities of a newfound strain of bio-weapon. I've mentioned it to people here and there in the past as a possibility since around the first month of the virus hitting Canada. And it still remains a viable theory today, so I'm glad to see it more popular in mainstream media. Given the nature of the research at the virology lab and the secrecy of the projects that exist at the facilities - it's impossible to dismiss this as a hair-brained falsehood. There is evidence and it is finally being investigated by the World Health Organization, CDC and U.S. government.

I want to know how you feel about this and what you think will happen next. Where do you think it actually came from because, honestly, it holds more merit than an uncooked delicacy in rural China. I understand it's still pretty far-off and it's mostly based on circumstance, but it's not unlikely at this point.

You can read the full article here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-...-1.6042038

[fritz]

For Canadian biotech entrepreneur Yuri Deigin [...]

Well that's a bad start, he's clearly not an expert on the subject (he's got some weird past stories btw).... I'm tired of all those random scientists, but at least he knows about microbiology and he's smart enough to not draw any conclusion.

There is evidence and it is finally being investigated by the World Health Organization, CDC and U.S. government.

That would be the point where we disagree, there is NO evidence and there might never be any evidence, even if it's true...!
No matter if Wuhan lab is directly involved or not, I'm pretty sure there are some very confidential projects they don't want to share, preventing WHO from investigating properly.
Like, for what I know, they didn't even publish de sequences of coronaviruses they were actually researching on there, only said "they don't match at all with sars-cov-2"

[Jiggly]

For Canadian biotech entrepreneur Yuri Deigin [...]

Well that's a bad start, he's clearly not an expert on the subject (he's got some weird past stories btw).... I'm tired of all those random scientists, but at least he knows about microbiology and he's smart enough to not draw any conclusion.

There is evidence and it is finally being investigated by the World Health Organization, CDC and U.S. government.

That would be the point where we disagree, there is NO evidence and there might never be any evidence, even if it's true...!
No matter if Wuhan lab is directly involved or not, I'm pretty sure there are some very confidential projects they don't want to share, preventing WHO from investigating properly.
Like, for what I know, they didn't even publish de sequences of coronaviruses virus they were actually researching on there, only said "they don't match at all with sars-cov-2"

I think my personal views are in-line with what Fritz said. Although, to expand further: The scientists at Wuhan claimed they only found a coronavirus with 98% genetic similarity. That sounds very high, but when you're looking at viruses, it's simply not the same one. They likely shared a common ancestor relatively recently. I could be wrong, but I believe this is one of the many reasons they believe the virus originated in bats, and then mutated, transferred to another animal, and then transferred to humans from that intermediary animal.

To clarify the lab leak theories: There's two kind of key possibilities 1) A lab engineered the virus, and 2) the lab was storing either live versions of the virus, or bats/other animals carrying the virus, and one of those got out of the lab (intentionally or not).

More than a few scientists investigated possibility 1. If humans were to engineer the virus in a lab, the virus would actually be far more dangerous than it currently is. Despite the damage already caused by the pandemic, it's a really imperfect version of a coronavirus. It would be more difficult to make the virus as it is now, in it's imperfect state, than it would be to engineer a more deadly version. This is a super laymen's-terms description of the findings from a few studies I've posted about in the past.

Therefore, if it did indeed come from the Wuhan lab, it's more likely to be a naturally forming virus that got out of hand/leaked. While there is currently literally no evidence for this (yet) and possibly may never be any evidence, there is still a chance this is what happened. However, if we miraculously found it, what are we expecting to happen?

Finding the source of the virus is extremely useful for scientists and politicians and think tanks. It means we will be able to learn about these events and prepare for future. However, most people gunning for China to get "found out" are not excited about Biden's investigation for that reason. They actually just want to see fingers pointed at someone.


tl;dr - There is currently no evidence for the leak theory, but there is a lack of investigation too. Scientists already are pretty sure the virus wasn't engineered, because despite the deaths, it's actually quite a shit version of a virus, and humans would have made it far more dangerous. This doesn't rule out accidental animal escape/leak from the Wuhan lab, though.

[fritz]

Well that's a bad start, he's clearly not an expert on the subject (he's got some weird past stories btw).... I'm tired of all those random scientists, but at least he knows about microbiology and he's smart enough to not draw any conclusion.

There is evidence and it is finally being investigated by the World Health Organization, CDC and U.S. government.

That would be the point where we disagree, there is NO evidence and there might never be any evidence, even if it's true...!
No matter if Wuhan lab is directly involved or not, I'm pretty sure there are some very confidential projects they don't want to share, preventing WHO from investigating properly.
Like, for what I know, they didn't even publish de sequences of coronaviruses virus they were actually researching on there, only said "they don't match at all with sars-cov-2"

They likely shared a common ancestor relatively recently. I could be wrong, but I believe this is one of the many reasons they believe the virus originated in bats, and then mutated, transferred to another animal, and then transferred to humans from that intermediary animal.

Actually I think the "intermediary animal" theory is still not 100% sure, but that's still the more likely explanation yeah

Therefore, if it did indeed come from the Wuhan lab, it's more likely to be a naturally forming virus that got out of hand/leaked. While there is currently literally no evidence for this (yet) and possibly may never be any evidence, there is still a chance this is what happened.

Yes I believe proving it's natural virus evolution isn't a perfect science yet. But if we can find a real hint it's not, we will certainly hear about it.
Also one other possibility is that they got infected while collecting some samples for the Wuhan lab (in the bat caves for example)!

Scientists already are pretty sure the virus wasn't engineered, because despite the deaths, it's actually quite a shit version of a virus, and humans would have made it far more dangerous.

I'll add that we're pretty certain, even if at some point we discover it was engineered, that this wasn't released on purpose! Nothing would be more stupid than releasing it next to the lab it comes from haha

[Jiggly]

Well that's a bad start, he's clearly not an expert on the subject (he's got some weird past stories btw).... I'm tired of all those random scientists, but at least he knows about microbiology and he's smart enough to not draw any conclusion.
That would be the point where we disagree, there is NO evidence and there might never be any evidence, even if it's true...!
No matter if Wuhan lab is directly involved or not, I'm pretty sure there are some very confidential projects they don't want to share, preventing WHO from investigating properly.
Like, for what I know, they didn't even publish de sequences of coronaviruses virus they were actually researching on there, only said "they don't match at all with sars-cov-2"

They likely shared a common ancestor relatively recently. I could be wrong, but I believe this is one of the many reasons they believe the virus originated in bats, and then mutated, transferred to another animal, and then transferred to humans from that intermediary animal.

Actually I think the "intermediary animal" theory is still not 100% sure, but that's still the more likely explanation yeah

Therefore, if it did indeed come from the Wuhan lab, it's more likely to be a naturally forming virus that got out of hand/leaked. While there is currently literally no evidence for this (yet) and possibly may never be any evidence, there is still a chance this is what happened.

Yes I believe proving it's natural virus evolution isn't a perfect science yet. But if we can find a real hint it's not, we will certainly hear about it.
Also one other possibility is that they got infected while collecting some samples for the Wuhan lab (in the bat caves for example)!

Scientists already are pretty sure the virus wasn't engineered, because despite the deaths, it's actually quite a shit version of a virus, and humans would have made it far more dangerous.

I'll add that we're pretty certain, even if at some point we discover it was engineered, that this wasn't released on purpose! Nothing would be more stupid than releasing it next to the lab it comes from haha

Yeah, they can't yet locate/work out what that intermediary animal was either! Definitely the working theory, I guess xD

Actually, that's a very good point. The Wuhan lab may not have had the bats/virus within the lab samples per se, but that would certainly explain the vague intelligence reports about the lab staff having been off-sick in November 2019.

Haha I agree! That would be a little "too obvious".

[Oni]

Well that's a bad start, he's clearly not an expert on the subject (he's got some weird past stories btw).... I'm tired of all those random scientists, but at least he knows about microbiology and he's smart enough to not draw any conclusion.
That would be the point where we disagree, there is NO evidence and there might never be any evidence, even if it's true...!
No matter if Wuhan lab is directly involved or not, I'm pretty sure there are some very confidential projects they don't want to share, preventing WHO from investigating properly.
Like, for what I know, they didn't even publish de sequences of coronaviruses virus they were actually researching on there, only said "they don't match at all with sars-cov-2"

They likely shared a common ancestor relatively recently. I could be wrong, but I believe this is one of the many reasons they believe the virus originated in bats, and then mutated, transferred to another animal, and then transferred to humans from that intermediary animal.

Actually I think the "intermediary animal" theory is still not 100% sure, but that's still the more likely explanation yeah

Therefore, if it did indeed come from the Wuhan lab, it's more likely to be a naturally forming virus that got out of hand/leaked. While there is currently literally no evidence for this (yet) and possibly may never be any evidence, there is still a chance this is what happened.

Yes I believe proving it's natural virus evolution isn't a perfect science yet. But if we can find a real hint it's not, we will certainly hear about it.
Also one other possibility is that they got infected while collecting some samples for the Wuhan lab (in the bat caves for example)!

Scientists already are pretty sure the virus wasn't engineered, because despite the deaths, it's actually quite a shit version of a virus, and humans would have made it far more dangerous.

I'll add that we're pretty certain, even if at some point we discover it was engineered, that this wasn't released on purpose! Nothing would be more stupid than releasing it next to the lab it comes from haha

If it was planned, I wouldn't put it past the CCP to consider that area expendable. Given that they organ harvest buddhists, I wouldn't put anything past them.

All of this is speculative, but it seems obvious that the virus didn't originate in the states or kingdom.

[fritz]

If it was planned, I wouldn't put it past the CCP to consider that area expendable.

We're not talking about it being expendable though, only that if it was a weapon it wouldn't make any sense to use it just next to the lab it comes from

[Oni]

If it was planned, I wouldn't put it past the CCP to consider that area expendable.

We're not talking about it being expendable though, only that if it was a weapon it wouldn't make any sense to use it just next to the lab it comes from

As I said, it's all speculative. Perhaps on the grounds of plausible deniability? It also could have just gotten loose, as others stated. China is more capable of enforcing lockdowns/restrictions, whereas people in the states will complain about their rights.

[fritz]

If it was planned, I wouldn't put it past the CCP to consider that area expendable.

We're not talking about it being expendable though, only that if it was a weapon it wouldn't make any sense to use it just next to the lab it comes from

As I said, it's all speculative. Perhaps on the grounds of plausible deniability?

Hm I don't believe plausible deniability is a good argument to use a weapon next to it's research facility, anywhere else would be smarter (and provide less attention). That's not much a speculation.. This plausible deniability explanation is too far-fetched for real life, but maybe in movies yeah :p

It also could have just gotten loose, as others stated.

Well yeah that's what we were saying basically

[Oni]

We're not talking about it being expendable though, only that if it was a weapon it wouldn't make any sense to use it just next to the lab it comes from

As I said, it's all speculative. Perhaps on the grounds of plausible deniability?

Hm I don't believe plausible deniability is a good argument to use a weapon next to it's research facility, anywhere else would be smarter (and provide less attention). That's not much a speculation.. This plausible deniability explanation is too far-fetched for real life, but maybe in movies yeah :p

It also could have just gotten loose, as others stated.

Well yeah that's what we were saying basically

If we're operating on the assumption they care about the research facility or their own citizens, that logic lines up.

"I have to remind everybody and myself, too, that, you know, we're still far from a conclusive proof either way," said Deigin.

As stated, I'd be wary of anyone that is certain. I'm simply playing devil's advocate.