(03-18-2022, 12:43 AM)imgr8ness Wrote: Zelensky indirectly admits that the war could of been avoided all along, as one of Russia's points was that Ukraine should remain independent and not join NATO.

That being the case, why did Zelensky make the choice to fight Russia to begin with?

Reading Zelenskys various statements as the war progressed has revealed he made a grave mistake opting to oppose Russia, for which his own people have paid the price.

Ukraine is not in NATO and therefore NATO is bound by their own laws not to engage in this conflict.

Zelensky gambled with his peoples lives, hoping that NATO would come to the rescue but ultimately this was never going to happen and now he has Ukrainian blood on his hands.

This actor and comedian should NEVER have been elected, he has proved to be a disaster for the country.

And when the conflict finally ends and Zelensky has achieved nothing except what Russia asked for from the start, the people will see that their loved ones dying was all for nothing.

(03-19-2022, 08:28 PM)Boudica Wrote:

(03-18-2022, 12:43 AM)imgr8ness Wrote: Zelensky indirectly admits that the war could of been avoided all along, as one of Russia's points was that Ukraine should remain independent and not join NATO.

That being the case, why did Zelensky make the choice to fight Russia to begin with?

Reading Zelenskys various statements as the war progressed has revealed he made a grave mistake opting to oppose Russia, for which his own people have paid the price.

Ukraine is not in NATO and therefore NATO is bound by their own laws not to engage in this conflict.

Zelensky gambled with his peoples lives, hoping that NATO would come to the rescue but ultimately this was never going to happen and now he has Ukrainian blood on his hands.

This actor and comedian should NEVER have been elected, he has proved to be a disaster for the country.

And when the conflict finally ends and Zelensky has achieved nothing except what Russia asked for from the start, the people will see that their loved ones dying was all for nothing.

I'm sorry, who began military operations and actually started the fighting?

(03-20-2022, 12:12 AM)Shionari Wrote:

(03-19-2022, 08:28 PM)Boudica Wrote:

(03-18-2022, 12:43 AM)imgr8ness Wrote: Zelensky indirectly admits that the war could of been avoided all along, as one of Russia's points was that Ukraine should remain independent and not join NATO.

That being the case, why did Zelensky make the choice to fight Russia to begin with?

Reading Zelenskys various statements as the war progressed has revealed he made a grave mistake opting to oppose Russia, for which his own people have paid the price.

Ukraine is not in NATO and therefore NATO is bound by their own laws not to engage in this conflict.

Zelensky gambled with his peoples lives, hoping that NATO would come to the rescue but ultimately this was never going to happen and now he has Ukrainian blood on his hands.

This actor and comedian should NEVER have been elected, he has proved to be a disaster for the country.

And when the conflict finally ends and Zelensky has achieved nothing except what Russia asked for from the start, the people will see that their loved ones dying was all for nothing.

I'm sorry, who began military operations and actually started the fighting?

I think what @"imgr8ness" is trying to say is that Zelensky should've had the foresight to predict that this was going to be the most likely outcome. As he said, NATO is bound by its own laws not to get involved in this situation, and the threat of nuclear war is too dangerous for other countries to engage and try to seriously oppose Russia.
Knowing all of this, Zelensky should've judged that his people's lives were too precious to risk losing over something like this. But he didn't, and his people paid the price for it. All so that in the end, Russia still gets what it wanted, and all Ukraine got out of the situation was human and material losses.
This doesn't invalidate your point about Putin in any way. But it does show major incompetence from the part of Zelensky, and that incompetence has led to a significant tragedy this time. I agree with @"imgr8ness". He should never have been elected.

(03-20-2022, 12:19 AM)Boudica Wrote: At the end of the day, he, and others in his government, chose independence as more important than the risks.

(03-20-2022, 12:19 AM)Boudica Wrote: Thanks Shionari. I appreciate your input.

(03-20-2022, 12:19 AM)Boudica Wrote: At the end of the day, he, and others in his government, chose independence as more important than the risks. I believe the stance the civilians have taken have shown they they, by a large majority, agree with this stance.

To clarify, this isn't something I've taken from news, it's because I know actual Ukrainians in real life. This has somewhat altered my viewpoint. They do a very good job of also describing the Russian perspective, which is very interesting.

Of course, without speaking to someone actually from/in Russia, it's difficult to get a fairer picture.

(03-20-2022, 12:56 AM)Dismas Wrote: The narrative that Zelensky put his people in a situation they weren't happy to enter, isn't entirely true. If that were the case, his approval ratings would plummet. The opposite has happened, showing that the Ukrainian people want to remain independent of Russia. To say he shouldn't have been elected isn't fair, as he's representing his people's interests (for better or worse).

Unlike the Ukraine, Russia is seeing signs of dissent. Over 14,000 people have been arrested for protest, and their astronauts are wearing the Ukrainian flag. The will of the people, in both Ukraine and the rest of the world, is evident.

(03-20-2022, 01:30 AM)Shionari Wrote:

(03-20-2022, 12:19 AM)Boudica Wrote: Thanks Shionari. I appreciate your input.

My pleasure ^^ I love having these discussions

(03-20-2022, 12:19 AM)Boudica Wrote: At the end of the day, he, and others in his government, chose independence as more important than the risks. I believe the stance the civilians have taken have shown they they, by a large majority, agree with this stance.

To clarify, this isn't something I've taken from news, it's because I know actual Ukrainians in real life. This has somewhat altered my viewpoint. They do a very good job of also describing the Russian perspective, which is very interesting.

Of course, without speaking to someone actually from/in Russia, it's difficult to get a fairer picture.

(03-20-2022, 12:56 AM)Dismas Wrote: The narrative that Zelensky put his people in a situation they weren't happy to enter, isn't entirely true. If that were the case, his approval ratings would plummet. The opposite has happened, showing that the Ukrainian people want to remain independent of Russia. To say he shouldn't have been elected isn't fair, as he's representing his people's interests (for better or worse).

Unlike the Ukraine, Russia is seeing signs of dissent. Over 14,000 people have been arrested for protest, and their astronauts are wearing the Ukrainian flag. The will of the people, in both Ukraine and the rest of the world, is evident.

I see. I hadn't really considered the fact that Ukrainians seemed to support Zelensky's decision. Perhaps it was unfair of me to judge him hastily, but I still think his decision was overall a bad one. At the end of the day, this whole conflict still hasn't led to anything that could be considered positive. Sure, people are now speaking out against Putin's brutality and dictatorship, and Ukraine has shown that it wants to obtain its independence, but that's nothing compared to the hundreds of lives that were lost in the process - at least, in my opinion. There had to have been a better way than to go through all this bloodshed.
Then again, it's still too early to say anything for certain. Maybe this will lead to new developments in the future that will justify what the Ukrainians went through. I kind of doubt it, but you never know.
@"Boudica" What did you mean by Russian perspective? I'm curious to know about that