Quote:Where do you think it actually came from

(05-28-2021, 02:26 PM)fritz Wrote: That would be the point where we disagree, there is NO evidence and there might never be any evidence, even if it's true...!

1. Natural (still the most likely, but almost certainly not from the Wuhan food market)
   
2. Good science, bad safety (e.g., they were researching things like diagnostic testing and vaccines, but an accidental breach occurred)
   
3. Bad science, bad safety (this is the engineered bio-weapon hypothesis, with an accidental breach)
   
4. Deliberate release (very unlikely, but shouldn’t rule out till the evidence is in)
   

(05-28-2021, 02:26 PM)fritz Wrote: No matter if Wuhan lab is directly involved or not, I'm pretty sure there are some very confidential projects they don't want to share, preventing WHO from investigating properly.

(05-29-2021, 09:40 AM)vittring Wrote:

(05-28-2021, 02:26 PM)fritz Wrote: That would be the point where we disagree, there is NO evidence and there might never be any evidence, even if it's true...!

Exactly, and it's okay that we disagree on some of these points, especially those listed in the articles I'll share.
Have to forgive my untimely replies - I recently was in an accident at work and cut my hand up pretty bad on some steel that was exposed in a rack.

So, there are 4 main theories on the virus' origin.

1. Natural (still the most likely, but almost certainly not from the Wuhan food market)
   
2. Good science, bad safety (e.g., they were researching things like diagnostic testing and vaccines, but an accidental breach occurred)
   
3. Bad science, bad safety (this is the engineered bio-weapon hypothesis, with an accidental breach)
   
4. Deliberate release (very unlikely, but shouldn’t rule out till the evidence is in)
   

One seems like the most adopted reason because of the shear amount of FUD spread about China being a third-world country without any scientific skill or experts with the knowledge of how to handle such things. The second one is what I disagree with the most because China actually has leading experts in the field of virology and this WIV lab is not known to have had any such breach of protocol so it is highly unlikely it was this scenario. Third is incredibly unlikely as well given the standards that the entire world has developed for chemical and bio-weaponry safety protocols. Again, it wouldn't be impossible but still .0000000000001% chance in my honest opinion. The last is what gives most people trouble because while it may seem like conspiracy fodder, it has merit. This wouldn't be to blame China, because there are agencies that would have been able to accomplish the release of this without being detected. We have operatives in the CIA overseas, so it wouldn't be hard for us, or another foreign entity, to commit an act that either disregarded safe handling - but here is why I believe this theory so much.

Why would any agency want to cause an outbreak of an unknown disease? The number one logical reason I can think of is population control, which is an ongoing, unproven program to lower the population of the planet in an attempt to save natural resources and stem global issues like rising C02 emissions, slowing our carbon footprint. It's not the first time that the U.S. or other foreign superpowers have used methods like these to drastically slow the rate of population growth. Another reason is that there is virtually no evidence that supports the population control and deliberate release theory, because obviously whoever was responsible would do anything to evade being found and captured. On a continent like Asia, where virtually anybody can disappear for any reason and never be found. But it's also likely that it was deliberate because there is no reason not to want to distract the general population of the world away from other topics that the powers that be do not want us to see. It's happened many times before and the distraction campaign never ends - sometimes being a joint effort of multiple intelligence agencies.

(05-28-2021, 02:26 PM)fritz Wrote: No matter if Wuhan lab is directly involved or not, I'm pretty sure there are some very confidential projects they don't want to share, preventing WHO from investigating properly.

Which is exactly why this cannot be ruled out completely, given the sensitive nature of the breach, you wouldn't want your enemies to know that there was a significant series of bad security and protocol - let alone exactly who was responsible for it. Whatever the case may be, regardless of our understanding of said protocols and standards, of which I'm sure there are many - no single cause can be directly dismissed here. It's probably why there is so much misinformation and speculation surrounding the nature of the lab in Wuhan itself and the staff within.

Here's staff at WHCDC safe handling
It also doesn't appear that they have bad practices or equipment at the facility, again, adding doubt that this would have been "accidental" in any way.

(05-29-2021, 11:43 AM)Jiggly Wrote: What doesn't make sense to me about the fourth option is why? There's no part of it that makes logical sense to me so far. If it was to reduce human population growth, it hasn't done that. For a start, the disease mostly hurts people who are past the point of reproducing. Young people, the most likely to contribute to population growth are less impacted. As for the number of people who have died.. 0.04% of humanity's current population passed away thus far. It's a drop in the ocean of a population whose growth is still accelerating at an uncontrolled rate. China's one child policy was far more effective at controlling population (China estimates the birth prevention at 400 mil, and western scientists predict approximately 200m).

1. Less busy planet. The world can't handle that much traffic. Eventually, there will be no more room if we continue on, but it's naturally inevitable.
   
2. No poverty. More people, less resources.
   
3. Minimal politics and state control. Less humans means exactly that.
   
4. A clean environment where there is minimal pollution. No mass human wast.
   
5. No need for television or entertainment for the dumbed down masses ever again.
   
6. All encompassing universal technical education and knowledge. No more dumb people.
   
7. No more war or religion. With less humans, there will not be any need for war or mass control systems like religion.
   

(05-29-2021, 12:32 PM)vittring Wrote:

(05-29-2021, 11:43 AM)Jiggly Wrote: What doesn't make sense to me about the fourth option is why? There's no part of it that makes logical sense to me so far. If it was to reduce human population growth, it hasn't done that. For a start, the disease mostly hurts people who are past the point of reproducing. Young people, the most likely to contribute to population growth are less impacted. As for the number of people who have died.. 0.04% of humanity's current population passed away thus far. It's a drop in the ocean of a population whose growth is still accelerating at an uncontrolled rate. China's one child policy was far more effective at controlling population (China estimates the birth prevention at 400 mil, and western scientists predict approximately 200m).

With the rising growth rate [...]

(05-29-2021, 12:32 PM)vittring Wrote: [...]  comes more laws and control and every person born increases the national debt of, for instance, the United States.

(05-29-2021, 12:32 PM)vittring Wrote: Reasons we should immediately lower this scale of growth are:

1. Less busy planet. The world can't handle that much traffic. Eventually, there will be no more room if we continue on, but it's naturally inevitable.
   
2. No poverty. More people, less resources.
   
3. Minimal politics and state control. Less humans means exactly that.
   
4. A clean environment where there is minimal pollution. No mass human wast.
   
5. No need for television or entertainment for the dumbed down masses ever again.
   
6. All encompassing universal technical education and knowledge. No more dumb people.
   
7. No more war or religion. With less humans, there will not be any need for war or mass control systems like religion.
   

(05-29-2021, 12:32 PM)vittring Wrote: It doesn't seem like it at first, but the way the government is currently controlling this growth has largely slowed the rate of decay of our planet's resources. Our earth has a carrying capacity.

(05-29-2021, 11:43 AM)Jiggly Wrote: What doesn't make sense to me about the fourth option is why? There's no part of it that makes logical sense to me so far. If it was to reduce human population growth, it hasn't done that. For a start, the disease mostly hurts people who are past the point of reproducing. Young people, the most likely to contribute to population growth are less impacted. As for the number of people who have died.. 0.04% of humanity's current population passed away thus far. It's a drop in the ocean of a population whose growth is still accelerating at an uncontrolled rate. China's one child policy was far more effective at controlling population (China estimates the birth prevention at 400 mil, and western scientists predict approximately 200m).

(05-29-2021, 02:35 PM)fritz Wrote: Actually this growth has been slowed down a lot for the last 50 years (mainly because of the one-child policy, but also because of better education and general reduction of poverty), it should naturally stop in less than 10 years: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CHN/china/population-growth-rate

(05-29-2021, 11:43 AM)Jiggly Wrote: What doesn't make sense to me about the fourth option is why? There's no part of it that makes logical sense to me so far. If it was to reduce human population growth, it hasn't done that. For a start, the disease mostly hurts people who are past the point of reproducing. Young people, the most likely to contribute to population growth are less impacted. As for the number of people who have died.. 0.04% of humanity's current population passed away thus far. It's a drop in the ocean of a population whose growth is still accelerating at an uncontrolled rate. China's one child policy was far more effective at controlling population (China estimates the birth prevention at 400 mil, and western scientists predict approximately 200m).

(05-29-2021, 03:03 PM)vittring Wrote: You can ignore them if you wish, because as both of you have stated, there is no real link to COVID regarding population density concerns or governmental action. This is purely speculation.