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Tutorial [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun filter_list
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[Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #1
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No, not that kind of ghost gun. And technically not the legal definition of one either (we won't get into it). Here's what I mean by the term:
1. No record of sale or production (it doesn't exist)
2. No ability to trace
3. No serial numbers anywhere

"Well that's illegal!", I can hear it now. No it isn't. We're going to go into a tiny bit of detail regarding 18 USC Chapter 44.
It is illegal for a manufacturer of firearms to sell or import a firearm that does not have a serial number (26 U.S. Code § 5842)
Spoiler:
(a)Identification of firearms other than destructive devices
Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

(b)Firearms without serial number
Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

©Identification of destructive device
Any firearm classified as a destructive device shall be identified in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

Okay, so serial numbers are only required for manufacturing guns. But I can't make a gun without getting a manufacturing (type 07) license, right?
Wrong. ATF acknowledges this here, and the relevant law is  18 USC 921(21))(a) and ©
Spoiler:
(21)The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A)as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
<trimmed for length>
©as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

Okay, so what does this all mean?
It means that unless you're making guns as a matter of business (eg to sell or trade), you're exempt from (most of) the laws governing the manufacture of firearms. This includes the necessity to obtain a license as well as the need to mark your firearm with a serial number.

Now you might be saying "ok that's cool and all, but I don't have the skills to make a gun". Believe me, you're wrong again.
Sure, you probably don't have the tools or skills to make ANY gun you want, but I'm going to briefly go over the legalities of building a ghost gun. I won't give you instructions, for that, you should check out pornhub.

Here's what you'll need:
1. A PF940C frame blank
2. An Upper Assembly  for Glock 19 G3
3. A lower parts kit for G19 G3
4. A 9mm glock magazine

It's pretty simple, for tools, you'll need
1. A razor blade
2. Sandpaper
3. A drill
4. A small round file

You can do it with power tools, but that way works just fine.

In the end, you'll be able to assemble a gun that is a near exact copy of a Glock 19 (midsize 9mm) that has not a single serial number on it.
You might be asking "how is this leagl!? don't I need a background check?"
The answer is no. In firearms law, a firearm (what you need a background check for) is defined by 18 USC 921(a)(3):
Spoiler:
(3)The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; © any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
What this means is that every single part of a glock handgun EXCEPT the piece of plastic is an unregulated component. But what about the piece of plastic you got, isn't that a "firearm frame or receiver"? Well, according to ATF, no. Because you have to do considerable work to make it into something that is convertible into a firearm, it's also an unregulated part.



So in conclusion, yes, you can legally own a gun with no serial numbers (even commercial ones, but we'll talk about NSN's another day), and yes you can legally make your own gun. This means that as long as you make it yourself, you can legally own a ghost gun.
There are some restrictions. In CA, you can still do this, however you do need to mark it with a serial number. Used to be you could just mark it with a random one, but now you must apply for one from the state (lame).

Let me know what you think, and if you've made one of these, please post some pics.

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RE: [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #2
I think you've taught me more about guns than any other person I know already. I defintely never knew this was possible. Thanks for sharing knowledge like this with everyone.

Right now it seems that all of the components needed for assembling a Glock 19 are sold out though.
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RE: [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #3
(10-19-2020, 05:58 AM)Drako Wrote: I think you've taught me more about guns than any other person I know already. I defintely never knew this was possible. Thanks for sharing knowledge like this with everyone.

Right now it seems that all of the components needed for assembling a Glock 19 are sold out though.

It appears that way (or at least through GS). There are other suppliers, and you can use factory glock parts in it (but factory parts do have serial numbers on them so I didn't include them here).
Glock seems to have cracked down on vending complete upper assemblies, so you might still need an aftermarket slide (many people make them), but you can generally get all of the other parts easily.
Good old covid-19 fucking up the gun industry though....

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RE: [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #4
(10-19-2020, 06:01 AM)phyrrus9 Wrote:
(10-19-2020, 05:58 AM)Drako Wrote: I think you've taught me more about guns than any other person I know already. I defintely never knew this was possible. Thanks for sharing knowledge like this with everyone.

Right now it seems that all of the components needed for assembling a Glock 19 are sold out though.

It appears that way (or at least through GS). There are other suppliers, and you can use factory glock parts in it (but factory parts do have serial numbers on them so I didn't include them here).
Glock seems to have cracked down on vending complete upper assemblies, so you might still need an aftermarket slide (many people make them), but you can generally get all of the other parts easily.
Good old covid-19 fucking up the gun industry though....

Less common ammo has also been sold out. People are scalping, as well.
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RE: [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #5
Even for an outsider, this was an interesting read. Of course, I've read several of your discord conversations about the topic too, so I had some awareness of it.

However, I wonder if you could explain to me as an outsider, why a ghost gun in desirable? Let's assume you are an average good guy civilian. What would make you choose doing this, over purchasing another weapon from a store/well known brand? Or is it just something that's fun?
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RE: [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #6
(10-19-2020, 04:52 PM)Jiggly Wrote: However, I wonder if you could explain to me as an outsider, why a ghost gun in desirable? Let's assume you are an average good guy civilian. What would make you choose doing this, over purchasing another weapon from a store/well known brand? Or is it just something that's fun?

I actually forgot to include that in the thread and was waiting for someone to ask it. I really see 2 reasons:

1. If you don't like doing the paperwork for buying a handgun retail (as I don't), or don't trust the government (as I don't)
2. if you're prohibited under 18 USC 922(b)(1):
Quote:(b)It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1)any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

Under the law, it is illegal to sell a handgun to anyone under 21, however it is NOT illegal for someone under 21 to own a handgun, so if you're under 21 and want to carry a handgun your options are family gift or making your own.

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RE: [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #7
@Jiggly  I fogot to mention some other reasons:

1. The novelty of having a gun with no serial is neat (since most people think its impossible)
Spoiler:
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2. A lot of the 80% frames actually come stock with 90% of the aftermarket cuts that people like. The above glock 43 80% clone for instance has really aggressive grips, an undercut trigger, and a ledge for my support hand. These all make the extremely tiny gun this is just as controllable as a full size handgun.

Note: you do pay a premium for this kind of thing though. A factory G43 might cost around $450, you'd spend about $600 building one identical to mine.

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RE: [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #8
So, basically what you're saying is that I can make a gun right now and I won't need a firearm license?

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RE: [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #9
(10-20-2020, 10:05 AM)phyrrus9 Wrote: @Jiggly  I fogot to mention some other reasons:

1. The novelty of having a gun with no serial is neat (since most people think its impossible)
Spoiler:
[Image: hdZQN1W.jpg]
2. A lot of the 80% frames actually come stock with 90% of the aftermarket cuts that people like. The above glock 43 80% clone for instance has really aggressive grips, an undercut trigger, and a ledge for my support hand. These all make the extremely tiny gun this is just as controllable as a full size handgun.

Note: you do pay a premium for this kind of thing though. A factory G43 might cost around $450, you'd spend about $600 building one identical to mine.

So am I understanding this right - 1) it's legal access to something you may not be legally allowed to access via other means, 2) because "fuck the government", 3) it's fun and you can make what you want, and 4) because you can.

Perfectly acceptable reasons!

It wouldn't be something I'd do myself, but it is interesting - Not dissimilar to how someone building a car or a bike is interesting.
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RE: [Hobby Section] Getting a ghost gun #10
(10-19-2020, 04:08 AM)phyrrus9 Wrote: So in conclusion, yes, you can legally own a gun with no serial numbers (even commercial ones, but we'll talk about NSN's another day), and yes you can legally make your own gun. This means that as long as you make it yourself, you can legally own a ghost gun.
There are some restrictions. In CA, you can still do this, however you do need to mark it with a serial number. Used to be you could just mark it with a random one, but now you must apply for one from the state (lame).

Holy shit dude, you are making me want to shoot people.
Great work with the tutorial, btw.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020, 01:15 AM by ch0colate. Edit Reason: Edit Reason: )
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