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RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine #24
(03-07-2022, 07:55 AM)Jiggly Wrote:
(03-07-2022, 12:33 AM)imgr8ness Wrote:
(03-06-2022, 03:24 PM)Oni Wrote: You keep mentioning the US, but pretty much every other country is in opposition to the Russian occupation. Acknowledging a country's independence includes allowing them to decide who they form alliances with. Ukraine wasn't being considered for NATO, yet Putin felt threatened? He doesn't want them to be independent, he wants them to be a puppet state (at the very least).

Of course, an independent country should be able to decide who they form alliances with, in principal. However, as countries such as Ukraine share its border with others, it would be naive to think their actions have no impact on those around them. No country exists in a vacuum, many decisions a country makes can have massive ramifications for those around them.

Ukraine being where it is and its status as independent actually puts it at risk. I liken it to a new prison inmate who has no gang affiliations, entering a prison and being targeted by everyone until he joins a gang. In this instance, Ukraine is a new prison inmate facing the choice of joining either the US' gang (NATO) or Russia's.

So both the US and Russia want control of Ukraine, albeit without the obvious appearance of such. Both the US and Russia's method of control would be to install a puppet government, the only difference being that Russia would ideally do it surruptitiously by making sure it gets its agents into the top jobs and the US would do it by getting Ukraine to join NATO.

Ukraine wasn't being considered for NATO? Depends what you mean by 'considered'. At a NATO summit in Bucharest, 2008, it was stated 'NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.  Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations.' I'm too new here to post links but do a google search with that phrase and you will get a result from the NATO site.

While Ukraine is still not a member currently, owing primarily to the upheaval since 2014, its clear that it is only a matter of time until it happens. Putin knows this, we all do.

When NATO made that statement in 2008, Putin didn't invade Ukraine. Its been 14 years since that was said so you have to ask the question, why would Putin decide to invade now? Clearly, he must have seen something coming with regards to Ukraine's NATO aspirations. Remember, we only know what is reported in the news or written in opinion pieces, we are not privy to the highly classified intelligence from either country so we will never truly know what is going on behind the scenes.

All I can say is this, my perspective is that this is not about 'right' or 'wrong', both the US and Russia want the same thing for the same reasons and in that regard, they are two sides of the same coin.

(03-07-2022, 07:00 AM)imgr8ness Wrote:
(03-07-2022, 03:03 AM)Oni Wrote: With the Ukrainian invasion, there's been an increase in Ruble/BTC exchanges... Likely as a result of sanctions and financial issues.

Yes, increases a combination of people trying to preserve wealth in the Ukraine but mostly due to investors positioning themselves to take advantage of a perceived future uptick. Time will tell but its always true that where there is a tragedy, a dollar is to be made.

I agree that both want power. But I think the method does differ. The US will not be installing a puppet government.
I believe the Ukraine was denied EU membership but again I think some of this relates to previous conflicts. I'd like to know why Russia has been planning the invasion for the last year. What specifically triggered it?

Also to clarify for those unaware: NATO is not US controlled. The US is a member, who actually nearly left NATO during Trump's presidency. NATO is primarily made up of European countries. This is every bit a fight between European democracy and freedom vs Russia's fears of threats from us. A little more understanding from both sides could go a long way, but neither is willing to compromise.

The US may not control NATO with an iron fist but there is no doubt they are the primary influencing member.

My evidence of this is the fact NATO was originally called the 'Washington Treaty' as it was the US governments idea to strengthen western Europe against the Soviet Union, its essentially where NATO was 'born' and if a country is invited to join NATO then they must lodge an 'instrument of accession' with the US government (NATO: article 10). And it was the US who invoked for the first time in NATO's history, Article 5 in 2001 as a result of the Sep 11 attacks.

Democracy & Freedom vs Russia? I disagree. Ukraine is simply a strategic asset that neither side will allow to be completely independent.

You ask the question, what triggered Russia to begin planning this military action a year ago? As I've said previously, understandably Russia can't have Ukraine joining NATO and without a doubt, Ukraine has been making real moves towards this goal over the last year especially. My view is, Putin could see this unfolding and prepared accordingly.

More recently in November 2021, the US Dept. of State released a statement containing the following:

The United States continues to support NATO’s decision...that Georgia and Ukraine will become NATO members. These countries’ Annual National Programs (ANP) detail their path to membership.

My view is, Ukraine has to remain completely independent which is inclusive of not joining NATO and not being absorbed by Russia. Hopefully all parties see this as the only way forward and make the right decisions which ensure this outcome.

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Messages In This Thread
Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Oni - 02-24-2022, 03:09 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 02-24-2022, 03:59 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Heatman - 02-24-2022, 05:33 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Num5kull - 02-24-2022, 06:21 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by billyferg - 03-04-2022, 09:00 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-05-2022, 09:51 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 02-25-2022, 08:06 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by billyferg - 02-26-2022, 04:27 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Geofront - 02-25-2022, 01:37 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Oni - 02-27-2022, 12:46 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by elwoodb - 02-27-2022, 11:10 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 02-27-2022, 01:18 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-03-2022, 10:59 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by STiCKs - 03-09-2022, 12:47 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-09-2022, 01:04 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Oni - 03-04-2022, 06:41 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-06-2022, 08:12 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Oni - 03-06-2022, 03:24 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-07-2022, 12:33 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 03-04-2022, 08:27 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Num5kull - 03-05-2022, 07:48 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 03-06-2022, 09:38 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Volxu - 03-06-2022, 04:03 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 03-07-2022, 07:55 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-08-2022, 12:40 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Num5kull - 03-07-2022, 06:59 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 03-08-2022, 04:27 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-09-2022, 12:41 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Oni - 03-16-2022, 12:23 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-18-2022, 12:33 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Silver44 - 03-16-2022, 02:54 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Oni - 03-18-2022, 01:39 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-18-2022, 03:57 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 03-18-2022, 06:46 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-18-2022, 07:07 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 03-19-2022, 08:37 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-24-2022, 12:26 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by theWilled - 03-23-2022, 04:48 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by ConcernedCitizen - 03-24-2022, 12:31 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-24-2022, 12:59 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Oni - 03-24-2022, 01:02 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by imgr8ness - 03-24-2022, 01:10 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by ConcernedCitizen - 03-24-2022, 01:32 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Jiggly - 03-25-2022, 09:06 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by WouldsOtton - 03-28-2022, 11:31 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by scargo - 04-05-2022, 03:16 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by smithlinda1502 - 06-21-2022, 08:38 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by botgros - 08-11-2022, 11:50 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Norman56 - 08-11-2022, 01:04 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by VanillaMix - 08-24-2022, 08:13 AM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by Larkas - 09-01-2022, 05:49 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by daddyk - 09-14-2022, 09:36 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by anone509 - 09-20-2022, 05:55 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by JamesDon - 10-08-2022, 07:23 PM
RE: Russia Attacks Ukraine - by wtf3421 - 10-09-2022, 07:02 PM



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